CULTURE, CONTROL, AND THE INTERNET
Exploring the Realities of Digital Violence Against Women and Girls in west Africa: A Comprehensive Dialogue
TRANSCRIPT
[00:00:26,760] Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining this conversation this evening. This is CAPSWA’s first podcast and we’re excited this is for such an important movement. That is ending digital violence against women and girls. We know that digital violence against women has become one of the fastest growing forms of gender violence today. It affects women’s safety, it affects their confidence and their participation in public life. So today our goal is simple. We want to unpack the reality of this issue. We want to explore. ways to support. Victims. How? How digital violence can be reported. and how communities, platforms, and institutions can do better regarding generally gender-based violence, especially how it, you know, because we know that the digital realm mirrors the real world.
[00:01:28,530] So, how we can do better as a community to support women and girls in society today. I am excited about the voices we have on today. We have Akofa Agala, Deborah Yusuf, and myself, Cleopatra. I am the head of public engagement at CAPSWA. That’s the Center for Politics and Security in West Africa. I have a master’s in security intelligence and strategic studies from the University of Glasgow. Akofa is the head of Operations at CAPSWA, and has a master’s in gender, peace and security from the Kofi Annan International Peacekeeping Training Center. and Deborah Yusuf as a Master’s in International Affairs and Strategic Studies. is the founder of JUGAAD Foundation for Peace and Nation Building. She’s a journalist and an activist, and is passionate about building sustainable development in Africa.
[00:02:23,630] I’m glad to have voices from various backgrounds and I look forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts and notes on our theme today. So before we go into the topic. I’d like to ask everyone a simple question. Has there ever been a point where you held back from posting something online because you were worried about the reaction and what stopped you?
Thank you for having me. I’m happy to be here and to participate in this timely conversation. So just a deep dive right into it. I hold back a lot from posting. On Twitter, I’m very active. I mean, X by the way, but I hold back a lot from posting because I see what you know.
[00:03:22,450] Some of the things that young women or women in general go through, or even not just women but the things that individuals go through, like if you post and someone doesn’t even agree with what you’re saying. They start abusing you. You know, insulting you, and sometimes it can just translate into something bigger. And so, for me, I hold back on posting a lot. If you’re on X, I’m always retweeting or just liking people’s posts. And that’s just about it. That’s it for me, yes. Oh, okay. So, has there ever been a time for you where you have, you know, damned all consequences and just said, ‘Okay, I’m going to get this out there, get my thoughts in there.’ No, no, no exceptions at all. No exceptions at all.
[00:04:14,220] I think it’s mainly because I’m just afraid of that backlash that comes because I’ve seen people go through it. And I think people are able to ignore it and get past it. But for me, it’s really hard. Sometimes I want to join the conversation, but sometimes I’m like, you know what? It’s not worth. You know, probably going through, you know, the kind of disagreements. And sometimes it can be very crazy when you see it. Someone is just posting something and the misunderstanding is so much, and next thing you know, it gets crazy. For me, I shy away from some of these conversations. And also, and I think it’s also because I think a lot of the people that bully or abuse people are faced. faceless. Sometimes you don’t even know who these accounts are.
[00:04:58,950] And so they just do it to your face. But if they really know, but if it’s physical, like for example, the conversation we’re having here now. I know Cleopatra, I know Deborah, and I know that they are not even going to say anything, you know, that’s going to hurt me or anything that’s going to offend me, or even if it’s criticism, it’s done constructively, you know. And so I prefer some of these platforms rather than others, yeah. Thank you.
Thank you very much for that. Debbie, I think it’s very different for you because you’re an activist.
Thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I mean, it’s a privilege to be here and contribute to the 16 Days of Activism conversation.
[00:05:54,020] So I would say that initially, when I first joined Twitter, because I think that Twitter is like the major platform where people experience bullying. All sorts of digital violence, more than all the other platforms. I think it happens across different social media platforms, but it’s more prevalent in on Twitter. So initially, when I joined Twitter, I held back a lot. I just felt like, ‘There are just so many big accounts, so many smart people. What if I say what I say and I get struck?’ I’m not so active on Twitter. I every now and then go in there, see what’s happening. And then pop out. I can go a day. Without Twitter and I’m absolutely fine. So, but I…
[00:06:41,690] I think that after I sort of got into activism, and I just my present day Debbie does not hold back. I think the only time I hold back when I want to say something is if I’m unsure of my stance or what I want to say. I probably want to give it some more thought. But if it’s a thought I truly do believe in. The other thing that will stop me from saying it is probably because I’m the kind of person that if someone is saying something already, it has already been said enough times. I don’t necessarily feel the pressure. To add my voice just because, but if I have a perspective that I’m not seeing on the tier, you best believe I’m going to drop it.
[00:07:24,800] I a few times I have gotten like, I wouldn’t say ‘dragged,’ because again, I’m not popular on Twitter, but like, , dissenting opinions or perspective or views that were insulting. When I’m, you know, made known my opinions. But for me, it did not necessarily, because again, it was not, it was essentially more of bullying that it is, you know, other forms of digital violence. So for me, it’s, if anything, it just strengthened my stance, made me to research more to. Ensure that I’m not thinking in an echo chamber and existing in my own. Walls and so, presently, Debbie does not hold back. , past Debbie, holds back, so yeah. Okay. Okay, that’s insightful because I’d actually expect that answer from you, because as an activist and as someone who I know is very vocal about a lot of stuff, particularly in Nigeria, I hear
[00:08:34,130] your opinion so much and I know I hold a lot of it and several times I’m like, ‘Oh my goodness, I wish I was bold as you to say what I’m really thinking sometimes even when I’m writing some articles and I’m like, ‘I really think this but I probably should not say it. And it’s good to see we have.’ Two people here who have kind of different experiences and it’s interesting to see that. Now moving on. , according to a study by Internet Without Borders, online gender-based violence affects nearly 45% of women. Using social media in West Africa and Central Africa. Yet. Only around 15% of these incidents are ever reported. There’s a huge gap. In the crimes committed and in them being reported.
[00:09:37,070] And I think it shows how normalized online abuse has become today. And we’re not just talking about people having different opinions. We’re not just talking about you know people just saying anything. How digital violence looks like is harassment. Receiving threats. exposing their personal details, also known as doxing, sharing non-consensual images, deep fakes and trolling. It’s different. from just people having an argent like usual. It’s continuous, it’s dehanizing, it’s hiliating. And you see that only 15% of it is reported. based off of this report. or off of these. Figures. Why do you think we have such low nbers or figures of people reporting violence especially women, women reporting violence against them?
[00:10:51,780] So I think it comes from first. What our culture is. You know, within our culture, , . Previously, a lot of women weren’t reporting issues of abuse, you know. For fear of shame or being blamed or ridiculed in the community. And so a lot of people generally wouldn’t report cases of domestic violence. And so I can say that that’s where some of this might come from. And so it’s translated into the digital space as well. And even, when we come back to the physical abuse, there are no clear guidelines as to even how to report. There’s lack of awareness on how to report some of these issues. A lot of people still do not know how to approach.
[00:11:52,760] and abuse if they’ve been abused physically if you’ve been harassed physically even whether it’s in the office you don’t even know how you’re going to approach this because the reporting lines are not clear and so i also see that this has translated into our digital space apart from say reporting the abuser’s account or the perpetrator’s account, for example, or blocking the person. What else can you do? it’s revenge porn where the person wants to where the person is sharing you know intimate pictures of you. How else do you approach this? And so I feel that the lack of awareness—or, like, the reporting mechanisms are not there to help, you know, the victims of this abuse. But I’m happy to report that at least in Ghana, you know, the cybersecurity authority has tried.
[00:12:43,840] They’ve brought laws in place. They’ve put some laws in place to deal with issues of revenge porn. And so, for example, if it’s proven that someone is sharing intimate pictures of someone, for example, or minors, for example, you could be arrested. And so, yes, but more importantly, we need to create awareness about the reporting mechanisms. Thank you very much. It’s good to know. You made a distinction there between sharing and we. You know, intimate images of you know people of women without their content and minors— we’re going to come back to that. Debbie, do you have anything to say on this? Yes, I think that Akofa covered a lot of the things she said are also similar to what’s obtainable here in Nigeria.
[00:13:44,220] But another thing that I think contributes to the low reporting of digital violence could be, our judicial situation, are slow and almost inept judicial system. When you think I’ve worked on the, you know, sexual and gender based violence space for about two years or three years in the past. And when you see the vole of work of cases in courts that are very slow. And oftentimes we’ve had situations where the survivors— I prefer to call them survivors than victims— come out to say that you know what I’m tired of this case has been running for five years. I just want to put it behind. I don’t think I’m ever going to get justice. It is too traumatizing. So I’ll just let it go.
[00:14:39,180] So there are a lot of gaps and, you know, weaknesses within the judicial system that makes it that people would rather let it go than fight or than report. They Go to court for this. cases because even if we look at the cybercrime Act in Nigeria and we look at the number of cases that have received judgment, they are majorly financial crimes. You would barely, I think, I’ve only encountered about three or four cases of this kind of digital violence against women and girls that has been prosecuted and there has been a ruling. I think that it’s another. thing that majorly contributes to it is the weak judicial system and how slow it is. Also, I don’t think that our policemen are trained enough to be able to handle these issues.
[00:15:36,820] There’s a sort of levity. that digital violence is being treated with, which I think is enabled by the patriarchy, because you would hear comments or statements like, ‘Oh, ‘You sef’ [sic], why did you say this? Or why did you exchange?’ these intimate pictures with your partner that has now been made public or you hear stuff around ‘Oh, just ignore this’ ‘Oh, yeah, delete your accounts’ ‘must you be on social media’. Those kind of careless remarks and statements is usually an indicator that these policemen have not been trained. They don’t even think that is an issue. And I think that that’s. you know, another gap. So these are some of the things I just wanted to add to what Akofa said. Okay, very, very, very good observations made there.
[00:16:30,070] additions actually made there. Number one, you said the judicial system situation in our country. I dare say it cuts across a lot of African countries. Sometimes the way the judicial system works sometimes. It’s slow. And then you see, there’s a lot of. In several cases, you find bribery. And so it discourages people from actually going to seek justice in the courts formally. It’s unfortunate. It is not always the case. I know that it’s not always the case because in some cases I have experienced people go to the courts and they got justice, but then it takes patience and not everyone has that type of. you know. I would say dexterity to continue with that. But it raises a lot of questions, your addition, as well as Akofa’s.
[00:17:30,370] one, about the, you know. the availability of support to survivors, like mental health support. to survivors. One. two. you said lack of awareness on how to report—I think it also boils down to you know how domestic violence crimes have always been perceived. Historically, in in in I know Africa is not a monolith so of course I would just say that clearly but It’s how it has been perceived in a lot of our societies. I know before the time of social media; you find that if a woman goes to the police station sometimes. You can hear statements like, ‘Oh, na husband, na wife, mata.’ You know, those kind of statements make it impossible for you to pursue. Sets in cases. The issue is.
[00:18:28,480] Minors, we see that a lot of younger people of this. In this, you know, Gen Z and even Gen Alpha are online recently. And. How do you think? The It’s. The way like the norm would affect them going forward facing online violence? How do you think this norm would affect them going forward facing violence? Digital violence, especially with them. Being increasingly online and sometimes facing you know sexualization. By older men. A lot of times you find that even some comments against them, hateful comments, even from their peers, but from older men. How do we think this affects them going forward?
[00:19:23,580] Yeah, so I think with minors, it’s also very difficult. And, you know, even for adults, we’re not getting the justice, you know, that we need. So for children, it’s actually very difficult to see them go through that. Recently, there was a young girl—I don’t know how old she is, but from the comments people were saying she’s 15. or below, or something like that. I would say, whether it was on Facebook, I think it was on Facebook, and then the issue came on Twitter. But basically, she posted something and she was saying she’s too young, so the men should leave her alone. You know. And then we had, so there were different opinions. People were saying, well, she’s too young. She shouldn’t be posting on social media.
[00:20:14,220] You know, she needs parental guidance, you know. People were saying she should get off social media. Other people were saying, well, she’s old enough, you know, all these different views and stuff like that. For me, it’s—I kept on worrying where does the law come in, you know. For minors, for example. And so I think for her, she may be. It may go two ways for her. She may, because of the mental trauma that she may go through, she may decide not to be online anymore as she moves forward, or that may actually embolden her. You know, because she may not understand the, the dangers that actually come with it and she may see it as an opportunity to post more to get their attention. And so.
[00:21:02,380] She does it without knowing what the dangers are. It could actually pull her back and then she gets back into her shell. And so that’s what I’ll say the dangers are for minors, especially if we’re not careful, this could just translate into something else. And most times when online abuse also happens, it translates into, you know, the physical space. And so something happens online, but the individual also feels it. They feel it physically, you know. And sometimes, if it’s very severe, it may lead to suicide ideation, you know. Other issues around suicide or depression or frustration. And so, yeah. Yeah. But we’re still also, you see, we’re still talking about mental health support and stuff like that. Debbie, do you have anything to add here?, so I was going to add that.
[00:22:02,150] Maybe my thoughts may be a bit conservative. I think that there should be a limit on age. And for some social media platforms, that’s a new goal. To be on social media, I think. Because. Peace. Accountability is difficult when it comes to protection of minorities and social media because we’re talking about these big tech companies that are thinking about making profits and not necessarily thinking about safety, right? So there has to be, like, I’m a huge advocate to hold these big tech companies accountable. How it affects them, I think it will vary for every child based on their backgrounds, exposure, their emotional intelligence and all of that, I think the effects will definitely vary. Pitch out. or pet teenager. And which is why, at the end of the day.
[00:23:05,910] There has to be a lot of protection around that because this can have long-lasting impacts on your mental health. Akofa said, and some of the some of the paths you may throw in line. It will definitely also have an effect. And that’s, I think, social media for teenagers should be regulated until a certain age. especially for particular or peculiar kinds of social media. I would say, like TikTok. Sweeter. Maybe even Instagram. I think Facebook, it’s pretty okay. Not that it doesn’t have its bad sides, but I think that there should be a huge regulation around it and also CSOs multilaterals should really advocate for future protections for women and girls and also teenagers. On social media and there should be huge consequences that perpetrators face in the case of either doxing or bullying.
[00:24:10,720] Or whatever form of digital violence it takes, because it has impacts beyond what we can see immediately. You may think somebody is fine and then eventually they wake up and do something that does not fit what you thought of their character and you wonder what happened. It’s me, likely. Be traced to that singular event or you know, over the period of time, it’s not just be one singular event of either bullying or doxing or deep fakes, sharing deep fakes of Thank you. girls on social media, it has effects. And I think that is something that it’s, I don’t think it’s given as much attention as it should be given. But yeah, we should definitely take it more seriously. Yes. Yeah, just to come in briefly, Cleopatra, I think I completely agree with Deborah.
[00:25:12,870] And I think Australia is trying to introduce a law. That protects their miners from, you know, I think it’s basically coming with an age limit. So if you are. at a certain age you cannot use their social media platforms, or I think you can all use TikTok. Yes, I think it covers TikTok for now. I’m not sure. I’ll have to verify that. And I think it’s great. I think it’s a welcome. It’s welcome progress, you know, especially for minors. Like Deborah has mentioned, it’s tricky when it comes to them. You know, we need to hold people accountable. And I think it’s— of the ways that we can protect them. For example, if it’s hard to hold these global tech companies responsible, then we will have to protect the miners.
[00:26:00,090] So I think it’s something that moving forward, West African countries can you know also adopt or focus on. And I know it’s going to be hard for us, especially within the West African context, because even already in the physical space, it’s really hard. So, you know, translating into online, we already don’t have strong online protection mechanisms, you know, so it’s going to be a challenge. But I think it’s something that. you know, where there’s a will, there’s a way, you know? So I think it’s something that we can also emulate. We can advocate for that, you know, and push. our governments and like Debbie mentioned, CSOs and other organizations to really advocate for you know, laws that protect minors. Yeah, I do agree with you. I think. To an extent, also.
[00:26:54,210] a lot of these suggestions are hinged on the fact that we are able to clearly define the term minor. Because it seems to also be a challenge. Offline. It’s in a lot of African societies. West African societies. It seems to be a challenge. I know it’s controversial. Okay. I know it sounds like a no-brainer, but it is a problem that we have. You see a lot of child marriages happening. And a lot of people come online to defend it. And you’re surprised about. If we don’t understand what the term ‘minor’ should be and why they should be married off and all of that and why they shouldn’t be in school. And it is a very huge debate online. It shouldn’t be, in my own.
[00:27:46,990] my own view, but it is. So. It might be challenging. Actually enforcing it because, in the first place, the term ‘minor’ seems to be challenging to define in a lot of our societies. I think that is something that would easily agree on. I don’t think that I find it— I would seem ridiculous that that’s been contested because, but yeah, it’s the world that we live in. But I think defining my own should be much easier in this part of the world than you know other parts. I don’t know, but like, just I think it will be easier. However, even within the context of West Africa, in some parts, like probably northern Nigeria, there will be, you know, it will be contested who is in mind or not when we consider.
[00:28:45,060] and some of the in my opinion, atrocities that happen in the name of child marriage. So yes, definitely. But I think we would be closer to agreeing. Who is he, mine or? Yeah. Yeah. some other agents. yeah but When we talk about blindness, for example, I’m just wondering. like I think I’m not sure what the Nigerian constitution says or what the other West African constitution say, but I know that most times the age of consent is around 18 years old, right? So then, why shouldn’t that even be like their stats? That if you’re, so you’re 17 or below, it’s automatically qualifies you as a minor, you know, why aren’t we even having those kinds of conversations? And it comes back to Yes, we should.
[00:29:37,885] It comes back to what Cleopatra is saying, that it’s like, we don’t know how to define minors. But it’s clearly spelled out, you know? And so I don’t think it should be an issue, but it is. And it shouldn’t be. And it’s worrying. Yeah. Yeah, I think so as well. And you know, it also, it also. is part of the wider problem of having laws and enforcing laws. You know that that distinction that we have. We have so many good laws, but, you know, enforcement has always been an issue in a lot of West African countries. So that could be another, you know, issue we might have. So yes, the law could say this, but then enforcing it, it might be challenging. Exactly. Yeah, I think.
[00:30:28,890] Based on this, I would want us to talk about how Several online communities have started, you know, rising that attempt to police, judge and regulate femininity. You see in several of these spaces, tell us, oh, this is what a woman should look like. This is what a woman should be like. This is how they should behave, dress, express themselves. And then you see that they attack women who go against grain. You know? And in several cases, they go to their DMs and harass them continually because they feel they’re. Outside of that, outside of, you know, that expectation that they’ve created. And it goes. But down to culturally. What? What our culture perceives or treats women as. I think it’s different in cross Africa. But how do you think?
[00:31:33,340] How do you think we could stop changing? You know, the narrative culturally. To make women more. Not just independence, but make women more active in being their own persons. Hmm. I’m very interested in this question because I was just thinking about it a few hours ago when I stumbled on a clip that was essentially talking about how the purpose of a woman is not monolithic. and I think that, culturally, when we be more than have to. Shit. it will cut across the different units within the society. Family, our churches, mosques, the place of worship. To begin to have this uncomfortable Oh. Yeah, to begin to have this uncomfortable conversation and challenge notions that want to fit all women in a box and allow different expressions of who women are.
[00:32:40,650] right I think that it does not make sense that in this day and age there is just a singular expression on what femininity is. All about how a woman should be. when we’re all you know, designed differently. And whether we look through religious texts, at least for my faith, we can see how that plays out. So I think, again, it’s the patriarchy way of trying to keep women in the box and define what they are. Can be and what they can be. And we know that, you know, traditional women themselves or I should just say women themselves. I think that there has to be intentional decision and that follows through. You know, programming and planning on how to change these things. It has to start.
[00:33:42,290] I am a champion for uncomfortable, difficult questions because I grew up in a church. Where in a small church, up to today, you would hardly ever find me in a big congregation where you can challenge, ask questions, and there will be a whole conversation around it. It doesn’t have to mean that at the end of the day, we have arrived as a definite answer. Of course, most pastors will like to have a stance that, oh, this is the definite answer. What I say is what you should go by. But being a PK. That’s a precious kid. I was privileged to have the kind of father that even if he would not agree with you at the moment, you are allowed to air your views, go back to back.
[00:34:32,060] And then he reflects days after, weeks after. He will do the whole African father thing that tries to agree with you without apologizing. You know, admitting they were wrong. What? I think that we need to address. If we’re going to keep— is that hold up? Culture that inspires you to say what you should present. I do not want to. Ah— contradictions with my thoughts if we’re going to confront some of those realities and some of those things that keep us confined. Maybe. To be comfortable talking about. About the uncomfortable, it’s well. While it was easier for [you] to come into a different society and enter different spaces actively, build it, find communities, even within the communities that tries to restrict, tries to convert, confine you, find out that a lot of people are thinking the same thing.
[00:35:40,650] You just find that and then you know that’s okay. Sometimes I say this with my friends: I’m like. You see this thing. I’m going to see it next time in church, I’m going to see it next time when we gather in this cop meeting, I’m going to say this thing here. And then we have elongated conversation. And I know that, okay, I’m not alone. I may be the voice speaking out, but I’m not alone. But by being the first person to speak out about it and others seeing you, you have inspired others. It may not be in the same setting. It may be in that same setting. You know, sort of speak out against some of these issues, challenge them.
[00:36:14,710] Within different contexts, I think it will do a long way in changing things, as opposed to shying away or always expecting someone to say it, or if nobody says it, let me not be the one to say it. It has to be here. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, I absolutely agree with you. And I think it even goes beyond, you know, just our religious organizations and, you know, our family institutions. I think it goes into our Thank you. education system. Because I know growing up in Nigeria, you weren’t raised to question anything. You’re not raised to question teachers. You’re penalized for it. And it is difficult to then grow up and be the person that questions society or questions norms.
[00:37:04,550] You just want to be in your own space and not get punished, even though no one’s really going to hurt you when you’re older. Well, depending— but, there are different forms of punishments, exactly. But it’s like I think it even goes down to our school system. We should have, you know, spaces in schools, secondary schools, let students not just come out and debate those, it’s good to be a teacher, it’s good to be this or corruption, this, no. Out and debate, you know, things that they experience, that’s in their lived experience, let them come and talk about it, you know, write about it, let’s encourage these ones to read, to write, to you know, enjoy being themselves. The problem is, we try to keep putting them in the box.
[00:37:58,930] I know recently they’ve stopped hitting kids, which is the best thing ever. But you don’t hit them, but then you tell them things like, ‘shut up,’ ‘keep quiet,’ ‘don’t say that again.’ Or like, you know, you report their parents who probably will hit them at home, you know, and it’s like emotionally. Exactly. So it’s like we need to actually in the schools, we need to change, reform our systems, move beyond just the system of ‘chew on pork.’ My friend calls it ‘chew and pour, cram and pour.’ We need to encourage ingenuity, you know, people to, our kids to come out and talk, let them be themselves. You understand? I think it will make our society more open to having conversations, debating things that are difficult, having uncomfortable conversations like Debbie said.
[00:38:51,650] And it would actually be better for us as creating safer spaces for women to challenge norms. Yeah and I think I also agree, with Debbie especially from the way where she came in with the cultural context, you know, and with the societal context and how it happens within our societies. And everything we are seeing online today is just a reflection of what happens in our physical space. So, within our homes, churches, and society, is basically what happens. And so. For me, I’d also say that The society as a whole need to start seeing these, you know, as problems that they want to solve. And so when I say society as a whole, it means that the men are also involved, you know, not just women. Because it’s looking like.
[00:39:46,880] Women are fighting for certain things and it’s making us look as if it’s a women problem. It’s not a woman or women problem. It’s a societal problem. Yes, like women not having the opportunity or even the space to speak up or be independent, you know, is a societal problem. But until we see it as a societal problem, for which reason the whole society has to come together, you know, to solve that problem. It doesn’t get solved. And I’m just going to digress a little bit and talk about, you know, abuse when minors are abused, when young. Kids. Are abused right. I always say this: that we keep on not—[as] we, but like the society keeps on seeing it as all, as a woman problem, as a woman problem.
[00:40:39,220] But the moment we start seeing it as a societal problem, where you know, what men are condemning it, pastors are condemning religious leaders are condemning it, everybody is condemning it. It’s because you. You know, once the voices are stronger, then we’re able to deal with some of these things. And for me, that’s why I always say that— until we see, until everybody comes together to see it as a problem that the society needs to solve. We are still going to be like, ‘Oh, it’s going to be like a harder journey for us as women, you know, trying to be independent, speaking up and not allowing bullying or other forms of abuse, you know, to just shut down our voices.’ So, yeah, that’s my angle.
[00:41:27,670] Cleo, I know you probably want to move on from this question, but I still have a few thoughts. That while Akofa was talking, it was just, you know, brewing in my head. I agree that it has to be you know society has to sees as a problem. and collectively solve it as opposed to seeing it as a woman’s problem. And then it’s only women. that are agitating to resolve it. I think that’s one of the major problems we have. even within the development sector and gender. sector that tries to champion discourse. I think I actually, I recently just wrote a piece is hopefully going to be published soon. I’ve submitted it for review. And I was sort of contrasting the 1929 ABA women’s riots. Thank you. And. The presence the women’s movement, right?
[00:42:33,050] And I would say I don’t know if you would agree or anybody would agree. For instance, you would say that The Abbas women’s riots. All of course, those the issues were more economical than they are. What we are talking about right now. I’m sure they also included some of these things. But I’ll say that they were more effective than what we are doing right now. That can be debated. And the reason why I have this position is essentially because of the outcomes, especially here in Nigeria, when we talk about, again, I may be digressing, when we talk about, you know, the women’s assets in leadership positions, the essential reason why we are advocating for these things is so that the cultural, the experience, the society, are having cultural shifts or changes.
[00:43:32,750] What? I don’t see. Happening that way, especially with the decline of women in in leadership in political leadership as opposed to some few years ago, and I’ll say that we have more, but we are achieving way lesser. I’ll say it can be argued— I would argue that it’s probably because we are inundated with too many external frameworks, toolkits that read us of our agency to actually look at things from our perspective and realities and what is and the methods that are actually you know effective in shifting and changing things. So this is a very, like, I don’t want to spend too much time talking about this, but I have a lot of issues. Maybe that’s why I was sort of drifted away from, because I used to be in gender, doing, you know, gender work.
[00:44:30,750] In the development space, because I just got frustrated with the way things have been done. Everything feels sort of cosmetic. Whether you’re talking about the marches. Whether you’re talking about the conferences; not that conferences are not important, but you get what I mean. It just feels so cosmetic. And I felt like I was just in a loop. But I’m beginning to even see that it’s not peculiar to just the gender field, but maybe because, maybe the reason why I’m narrowing in on that is because of how things desperately need to change and how I’m seeing resources being channeled the wrong way. So let me just stop. If not, I’ll just go on and on and on and on. I will never leave here. I think I get what you’re saying.
[00:45:15,270] I think it cuts across a lot of sectors, and it’s one of the reasons why a lot of online groups think that feminism is foreign, and— is, a [sic] you know, ‘white man’, thing You know? It’s why. Whenever more recently people use ‘Feminine’ or ‘feminist’ as a derogatory term. Because they think it’s not indigenous to us. But I think more recently we have scenes. A lot of individual movements, even men who are increasingly speaking about you know, women’s rights. Gender-based violence and who are educating fellow men. I think that is one way that Akofa also mentioned that it’s a societal thing because men would not listen to women. They would actually listen to fellow men. So when fellow men call them out for certain behaviors online and offline, I think.
[00:46:18,700] Then they would be, you know, more open to learning, even if, even if they’re not open to learning. I think it’s easy— it’s more ‘cultural,’ ‘culturally’ appropriate for them to argue with fellow men. So using that reasoning, their own reasoning against them, so you know, make them, you know, talk about these issues and learn about it. Akofa, do you want to add anything before we move on? so I think I just wanted just to add something small so we can move on from this. Is that, yeah, so I think it will be great to encourage, you know, more positive masculinity. You know, and just get the men you know to be one of us.
[00:47:02,010] Recently, I saw a video on Twitter recently it was in Ghana, Twitter, and I think I don’t know whether it was a football game that was happening. But they were on a field, and then there were so many Guy surrounding the lady. And so the lady tends to run away. And the guys all have their phones out and they took a video of her running. And I guess it was because of the way she looked, you know. And I saw the video and I’m like, but what’s the point of this? Like, why is somebody posting this on their, you know? on their page. And then I was glad to see a man comment that, you know what, stop encouraging, you know, some of these behaviors. You don’t have to post this online, you know.
[00:47:47,850] Let it get more attention. And I was very happy, you know, to see a man condemning it, you know. So yeah, more of those, more of seeing men coming out, you know. To support, , you know, women you know when they’re going through abuse and I mean online abuse is not just women who go through it anyway, it’s men so some men also go through it so we have to come together and fight it together. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I agree. I do agree. Okay, so finally, in a few words. What immediate safety steps can in individuals take? As an observer. And as a person who is as a victim of digital violence.
[00:48:42,090] So I would say that individually, one of the steps that you can take is some of the steps that you actually need to take offline in a way that it doesn’t affect you. Online. So sharing intimates. , immediately. Sweets. Concert with your partners. I think that that’s something you may want to put in check. To avoid these things from happening. And also for, depending on professionals, right, if you’re a professional. If you’re a lawyer. You can offer pro bono services because a lot of the times people are already thinking of what they are going to spend. . If they’re pushing these cases. So finding the network, like FIDA in Nigeria is a network called female lawyers that of our pro bono services. And to women and girls across the country.
[00:49:34,590] So yes, you may want to find such networks. And also ensure that you. This is. and do not always wait for something to happen to you before you begin to speak. Against it. So if you see it happening to someone else, be it an active bystander. When you see something happening. you can call the perpetrator out. Again, like I said, there’s no need for publicly, like I think Akofa was saying. Publicly, you know. Reposting that thing which you saw and you want to oh see what I saw. This is a terrible behavior. ‘Things are really spoiling in this country’ and you’re reposting it.
‘performative anger’
Thank you. Exactly! So do not do that. Do not do that. Report the accounts immediately. Yes, some of those platforms may be slow, but report the accounts immediately.
[00:50:39,220] Report to, you know, an NGO or NAPTIP or Human Rights, National Human Rights Commission. Here in Nigeria. And you can also forward, do an email and follow up to copy. All those, you know, Human Right Bodies. I think what’s important is just knowing the support that is available to you. Some people do not know that there are. NGOs that are working across the country. Trying to help. The victims of digital violence. If you. Like I rather see survivors of digital violence. You know, push. For their cases and gets justice. So find these networks. They are available on the internet. Sometimes you may need to leave where you are because if the threats become so bad. You may need to leave where you are. Some of this. NGOs have safe houses that you can seek refuge.
[00:51:29,050] So arm yourself with information and knowledge because like it is popularly said. They are. Information is power. Knowledge is power. And I think that’s as we journey in this digital age, and demand accountability from these big tech companies to prioritize safety over profits because we know that and the algorithm seems to, you know, push whatever, whether it is, you know, hate. Hate because okay it’s going to drag. Gain more, garner more attention. So it needs to be held accountable. There needs to be sort of universal protection than this. Big tech companies are held to. account for so yes that’s essentially my thoughts around what individuals can do, organizations also can. Do some of those things because holding big tech is not going to be an individual’s responsibility. So yeah.
[00:52:28,410] Thank you. Yeah, so just to add to what Debbie has said, I think it’s also important to, you know, learn. How? and where to report, you know, because some sometimes happen, and even the evidence to collect. You know, you’re going through something, something happens, and you don’t even know how to approach the situation in the first place. That can also deter you from reporting the situation altogether. I remember a couple of years ago, I had a story of a young lady whose boyfriend was Threatening hair was threatening to share, you know, her intimate pictures. And I had it, and I felt so bad for her. But at the time, I didn’t even know, you know, where to start. How do I go from here?
[00:53:21,640] How do I advise her to say, okay, you know what, go to this or report to the police or do it this way, you know, gather this evidence. So I think even before it happens to us, because it can’t happen to anybody around us at all, you know. Let’s learn how we can collect the evidence. Let’s learn how we can report it. Let’s learn how some of these issues are dealt with generally. So, physically, if it comes to, let’s say, so Ghana has a cybercrime unit. Apart from our cybersecurity authority, the police also have a cybercrime unit. It will be important to learn how we can report some of these cases. And even go further to learn how they even solve it, so that you can have some confidence in the system.
[00:54:10,170] And so we can do that. We can also learn how to report on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. So that it doesn’t escalate, basically. It’s also important, like Debbie has already said, we have to be cautious as an individual. Do not post some of these really sensitive pictures. Yes, yes, yes. And not reposting it when we even see it. Okay, thank you all very much for taking part in this dialogue. It has actually been a very interesting session. We are all actively taking part in the 60 days of activism against digital violence against women and girls and today we have just you know spoken generally about how online abuse affects women. And their participation in society. How it also affects young girls and minors, even in their future, using social media.
[00:55:11,380] And what to do when you witness digital harassment, and even if you’re a victim of digital harassment. How to go about it. We’ve also had the opportunity to talk about how community societal norms reinforce or challenge digital violence. And I know that, if you’ve got to this point in the podcast, you’ve enjoyed this conversation and you might also have things to add. Peace. Go ahead, pop it in the comment section of our social media on LinkedIn or even on our Instagram. You can send us a DM. Or right on the website, you could also pop, a comment there as well. We’re open to hearing your thoughts. We hope that you will carry this conversation forward and you carry some key action points moving forward so that we can turn today’s insights into concrete action. Thank you very much to our Paul. Speakers, Akofa Agala, the head of operations at CAPSWA, and Deborah Yusuf, the founder of JUGAAD Foundation, and myself, your humble host, Cleopatra. Thank you everyone for joining us today. And have a good day.
Goodbye.